Have you ever heard “I’m not in medicine for the money?”
When people say they aren’t in it for the money, what they are really saying is “I’m too proud to admit I’m in it for the money.” Seriously guys, not many people are going to put in the financial and time investment required to become a physician without adequate compensation. The ass-backwards medical training process has brainwashed people into thinking that it’s not OK to desire financial reward for rendering services to people who largely don’t care that much about their health to begin with.
So I’m calling all of the posers out. They don’t love sick people enough, they don’t enjoy doing that 135th appendectomy, they don’t love the long hours and nights on call without sleep. Those old ladies with dizziness at 3 am are enough to make them want to puke. Their work gets long, boring and monotonous after a few years no matter what specialty they’re in.
I challenge you all to submit an anonymous poll to your medical school class and here is the question:
If physician reimbursement were capped at $35,000 per year with no other changes, would you continue to practice medicine?
Everybody’s in it for the money.
I wouldn’t even bother finishing pre-med. I’d go back to being a paramedic, a job I love to do, but not for a measly $13 bucks per hour for the rest of my life. My family suffers too much when I have to work 96+ hours per week just to stay in the black.
hell no, im praying for EM, ten years to burn out so that I can live off my investments in real estate and fast food franchises to pan out from the day I turn 40.
Smarty pants– now ask insurance companies to put out a survey and ask their patients if they want a doctor who is paid $35,000 or one who is paid $150,000+.
I couldn’t afford medical care if not for my health insurance and probably wouldn’t get help when I need it just because of more pressing things like a mortgage, utility and food bills. My husband was unemployed (due to his company loosing a contract and not letting employees go work for the place that won the bid) and I was pregnant and didn’t go to the doctor. I jeopardized my health and that of my child but I had few options.
Who could object to what doctor’s get paid? Are they upset over what doctors earn or what they are not earning? Being a doctor is like an inverted funnel– get through the narrow opening and things are easier on the other side, but most people do college like the other side of the funnel, then live tightly.
No, I wouldnt go into medicine. I wouldnt go into I-banking either for 35k a year. There is a difference between doing something with money as the motivation, and doing something that cannot support your debt, let alone your family.
I remember asking on SDN if they had a system similar to the PhD one in which you got a stipend to go to med school so you won’t have the 200k debt. However, you would only get payed around an average of 75k a year.
As I expected, people said they would not want that system because they “deserve” the six figure salary after the hard work put in. I mentioned the PhD students also put in hard work yet they can’t even be sure they will get the job they want. Instead of answering my question, they just went on to attack me and had to lock the thread.
Don’t blame them for wanting money but I can’t stand it when they act all high and mighty saying it’s a calling and they want to help people when prestige and money (which half don’t realize that is no longer true as it’s been declining) is the main factor.
Anonymous, I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that doctors should make what they’re making or are you saying that doctors shouldn’t be making what they’re making.
You know, I’ve thought that exact same rant Hoover, and have iterated on a number of occasions. My entire point was to slash the salaries, and have only people who were really committed to medicine. However, what I had pointed is that no person will go through the amount of training (and the years of lost income, stress, and level of increasing debt) and not expect to be reimbursed appropriately after that. Everyone entering medicine is making a career choice, because, that’s what it is – another type of job. I’m the first to admit the financial security of medicine, and the fact that you can provide pretty decent life for your family, are incredible perks to the field. However, the meat of the career – the learning, the science, the patient care, the pathology etc. – those are the things that keep me going. I couldn’t work for that pay check. To be frank, they’d have to pay me a hell of a lot more then $300-400,000 to make me give up my 20′s to something I absolutely detest.
And I should really edit these things before I post them…haha
Yeah, so when people tell me that they’re aren’t doing it for the money are they just BS’ing?
I’m doing it to help people in the most meaningful way I know and to treat disease, and extend their lives.
I’ll admit the money is nice, and will allow me and my future family to live very nicely. Another reason I want to be a doctor is the superb job security. You’ll never be out of a job, and can work preety much anywhere you want. Furthermore, as a US trained and licensed physician my skills are valuable anywhere in the world should I choose to work abroad.
There will always be disease and thus there will always be sick people who need treatment. I’ll probably meet some amazing people throughout my life as well, and learn new things life long.
The prestige and respect is still there for the most part. If you’re a doctor in my particular family and community you are GOD. I’m not even joking when I say that the day I graduate medical school I’ll be able to marry any girl I want from my community and country. Hell, the day I get into medical school my life will be set.
As a doctor I won’t have to deal with the truly shitty low level workers I work under as a pre-med student. Sure their’ll be irritating patients but I can deal with that. Everyone else can go to hell. When I’m a doctor, I am in charge and won’t have to work with those tools.
K, you will learn that those “low level workers” are just as obstinate and surly to their bosses as their subordinates. They will be unionized, and probably won’t be your employees anyway, so you won’t be able to do anything about them.
…says the premed. Give it a few years and see if you don’t come back my way blowing a different tune.
As a resident, I know for certain that most people (>75%) are doing it for the money. You just get jaded through medical school. The snobby, apathetic attendings will get under your skin too. All they talk about is how big their houses are, and how much money they are getting to speak at conferences and for menial consults. I’m really tired right now from call, but I myself cannot wait to reap the monetary rewards of this so-called “honorable” profession.
“As a doctor I won’t have to deal with the truly shitty low level workers I work under as a pre-med student. Sure their’ll be irritating patients but I can deal with that. Everyone else can go to hell. When I’m a doctor, I am in charge and won’t have to work with those tools.”
Hahahahahahahahahaha…. you really made my morning. Oh man, I’m with you Hoover. Give this guy a few years and let him deal with the low-income, no insurance patients such as an ESLD patient who has rejected 4 consecutive liver transplants and you’re responsible for dealing with the family, lawyers, social workers, nurses, surgeons, techs, janitors that will make your life hell.
I think you guys are misinterpreting what I’m saying. I’m fully aware of the many careless patients I will encounter.
However, I’m preety sure after a couple of years I’m going in to the business/administration side of medicine, and less emphasis on the clinical side. Most of my happiness will come from my family and personal interests. Medicine will challenge me life long, and I probably won’t get bored as their is always new things coming up.
I know MANY docs here and in my family that are branching out on to the business side and making tons of money on their investments because they actually have a large amount of money to invest etc. I’ll likely do this while practicing, and make even more.
Let med add: I respect what you guys are saying as you are med students, residents etc who have been through all this and know first hand what its like.
What I’m saying is don’t hate me for actually liking medicine and helping people. We’re not all like Hoover.
I know a private practice doc who makes all the rules and hires whoever he wants, and drives a porsche. He has got it made. He takes shit from no one. That is the way to be.
No offense K, but you sound like you have no idea how the real world or the profession of medicine operates. You say that you actually care about helping people, but 90% of your post is about how much doctors you know make and how much of a divinity you will be in your community. You sound like just about every other pre-med I have ever met, and you probably sound exactly like Hoover 6 years ago. So, unless you’re one of those medical students who go overseas every summer to help third world patients, or want to match into primary care despite a 240 on the USMLEs, you’re EXACTLY like the rest of us. Don’t get me wrong. It’s okay to want the money and the prestige that comes along with medicine as a pre-medical student (we’re all human), but keep in mind that we all had the same aspirations and goals starting out, and it’s safe to say that the vast majority of us has seen and experienced enough to change these views.
You say that the majority of your happiness will be from your family. Well, ain’t that the truth for everyone? The reality of the matter is that you’ll be worked so hard in every field that your family or leisure time will be scarce to none. The only exception, of course, is dermatology. But unless you’re a genius and/or study non-stop, you can pretty much rule that one out.
Also, you DO realize that the following statements are antithetical to each other…
1. I’m doing it to help people in the most meaningful way I know and to treat disease, and extend their lives.
2. However, I’m preety sure after a couple of years I’m going in to the business/administration side of medicine, and less emphasis on the clinical side.
He really has no clue, just another pre-med who thinks he knows everything. He’ll learn, but it looks like it’ll be the hard way.
Yeah, I think he missed the memo … Pre-meds who already know everything about medicine are supposed to go to SDN where they can impress each other with how awesome their lives are destined to be. Those who dare to be investigate the choice before they totally screw themselves come here to learn the truth.
Whoa, whoa, lay off the poor guy. I’m a medical student in the UK (but the equivalent of a premed – I study at Cambridge which is traditional and has no clinical experience the first 3 years) and I have to agree, medicine is looking pretty shit from here. I look at K and I have to admire how he still has his rose-tinted glasses on. Ah well. At least the money will cushion the sting…
I guess I’m just harsh on those who claim they’re doing medicine for some grand philosophical cause, where in fact, they are actually doing it for the money. I have a ton of those in my class.
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Hoover, I’m also a premed and I’ve been reading your blog the past few weeks. I agree that most of us are in it for the money and honor, but I want to make a general comment. It sounds like you think that all or at least the vast majority of MD’s are unhappy with their careers. Honestly, do you really think that out of the 16k annual graduates most won’t be satisfied? I personally know a few myself and they are quite content. I’m sure you know many more such MD’s but can’t bring yourself to admit it. I recall reading a job satisfaction survey that showed physicians in an average position. Sure, it’s not the dream that most premeds make it out to be-that’s why doctors scored average-but I highly doubt it’s anything like the hell you make it out to be.
Without a doubt I know some docs that are happy in medicine. Based on my experiences though, I saw a larger number that were unhappy. These included private physicians that I rotated with on elective rotations in various specialties.
CG, it’s not about the actual number of doctors who are content or not in medicine. It’s about the overwhelming trend that leans towards the increased dissatisfaction with the profession. Older doctors who are already established with their private practices don’t necessarily have a bone to pick with the system, but younger doctors who are impacted directly by these changes are the ones who are upset and disillusioned.
I rise in support of Brother Hoover. Despite the many problems and frustrations, medicine is a good job if you get into a specialty that you like but there are very few people who would do it if they didn’t make relatively good money at it. It’s just not worth it. As for prestige, this is also a legitimate perq of the job and why I could never be an NP or a PA. All of the drawbacks (plus some) and none of the perqs.
I do think it would be interesting to explore the aspect of “prestige” from the standpoint of that being a draw to the profession. Obviously med schools have a vested interest in perpetuating this idea. Prior to Hoover’s ( and some others)blogs medicine had the allure of,as Hoover called,it “enchanced social status.” Now there appears to be more info circulating that the emperor in fact has no clothes.
Nothing wrong with wanting to do anything for a living to make money. But basing a decision on the whims of status and/or prestige seems dubious at best. Those can change on a dime.
I personally know three women in their mid 30′s who are: a radiologist, a nephrologist, and a pediatrician. They all make good coin and appear happy doing what they do. When I asked them why the went to med school they all said they liked the mental challenge and were good in science. They never said anything about status though they may just have chosen not to voice it. And as they are new in their careers their opinions may change in 10 years.
Still the question remains as to how well the students are being served by the perpetuation of “status” and “prestige” as a factor in chosing a career.
Everyone here seems to see this in black-and-white. Either you love the medical field to death and would go to a third world war zone to do voluntary work, or you you’ll have the most miserable career, with money the only thing that keeps you going.
Don’t most doctors out there feel that they are good at what they do and enjoy doing it, but if not for the money they’d rather do something that pays more considering their academic abilities? There is a wide range of high paying jobs such as corporate law, investment banking, business management, so they must feel some affinity to the health sciences.
While you have a good point CG, keep in mind that only a handful of medical students can actually make it to investment banking and corporate law. Those two professions are in extremely high demand and it requires more than the capability of scoring higher than a 30 on the MCATs to get your foot in the door. For investment banking, I’m going to say that unless you go to a top 20 undergraduate or if your BBA school is top 10, you will have an extremely tough time (if not impossible) getting into a respectable investment bank. They simply won’t recruit at lower ranked schools. As for corporate law, you’d have to be in the top 10% of your law school class, which isn’t exactly a walk in the park.
Bronx: The top 10% figure you quoted is true but only for average schools. Any graduate of one of the top-tier law schools-no matter the grade-is pretty much guaranteed a high-paying job at a big firm. Getting a competitive enough undergraduate GPA in law related subjects is easier than in subjects like organic chem. physics, etc. And a 30 on the MCAT means a heck of a lot more than a 150 on LSAT. (Taking a good course on logic is pretty much all that’s needed to significantly prop up the score of anyone with reasonable intelligence.) I don’t have access right now to the full US News report, but it appears that these schools’ acceptance rate ranges from 6%-15%. Add these to the top 10% of average schools and the rest is math. And this all is without considering business.
Nevertheless, the truth is that I would never be able to get that kind of GPA in business and law related subjects as my interests lie elsewhere.
I wasn’t too sure about the law figures, but I know alot of BBA students. (my undergrad had a top 2 business school) They say that to get into investment banking, hedge funds, or even consulting, you can’t have come from a small or lower ranked school, simply because banks and firms don’t recruit there. In order to get one of those jobs, you have to jump through many hoops to even get an interview. I mean, the point I was trying to make is that not all medical students have the option of going into a high paying job like corporate law or investment banking. I know for a fact that a good number of medical students I know do not have what it takes to succeed in either of the two professions.
I am here for both the love of my profession and money.
Not just money,
Not just my profession.
Wow, 32 comment. Ever think about adding a forum to this site, Hoov?
$75K a year, no debt and a stipend through medical school sounds good to me. I do appreciate the financial benefits of medicine, but this is not why I chose it. Money alone could not motivate me to do work this hard.
Over 2/3 of the med students in my class are more than likely in it for the money (personal estimate). But it’s pretty easy to tell who is who. The lip service may say that it’s not about the money, but when everyone is stressed, when there are OSCE’s or shelfs, when the patients seem sent to personally torture you these people will tell you exactly why they are doing what they are doing it in both words and actions. There are always a few med students, attendings who are different.
bronx43,
I’ve thought about it and still might launch a forum some time soon. I’m just not sure if the interest would be there.
Your argument is too simplistic. If you or your fellow students went into medicine to make gobs of money, you were foolish (or misinformed). Obviously physicians want to make money — they are ambitious, hard working, otherwise successful people. The answer to would they be physicians for $35,000 a year is obvious — no. But countless physicians volunteer their time every year, stay late, or make extra phone calls, none of which translate to more money. Physicians ought to be compensated well, the job is difficult and carries significant risks. But if you went into medicine to be able to buy a Masserati, you should get out now, Medicare reimbursement will be even lower next year. You can make a lot more money in business, finance, or real estate with only a college degree.
Hello,
I have to say that I’m really not in it for the money. As a children of a wealthy family, I don’t need the money, and I don’t plan on working that hard once I get my medical license. I know that no matter how hard I work, I would at best make as much as the interest I get off of the money my parents gave me.
With that said, I still wish to go into medicine. Even if I only work part time, saving lives is a much better past time than my peers who spend their nights in the local clubs.
Would I still work if they cap compensation at $35k a year? Sure! In fact, with my plans of volunteering, I don’t expect to make more than 50k a year.
Wayne, if you just want to make the world a better place and money isn’t an issue, join the Peace Corps. Somewhere during the 7-12 years of hell you’re dying to sign up for, you’re going to need more than a vague sense of wanting to make the world a better place to get you through it. It’s no accident first years talk about all the people they’re going to save and fourth years talk about all the money they’re going to make. You’re not even going to have that to drive you.
Well-said, DermDoc.
Regardless of Wayne’s motives-which definitely don’t include money-his story doesn’t refute Hoover’s position. The majority of us are middle-of-the-roaders who are seeking a good balance between a fulfilling occupation, income and respect.
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Not everyone does it for the money. Most do, but there are a few exceptions. Like this guy.
http://i.abcnews.com/Health/Germs/Story?id=3970795&page=1
Paul,
Keep me as far away from that shit as you can.
Thanks,
Hoover
If people really didn’t give a flying crap about the money then healthcare would be taken care by the government. However, doctors would never allow themselves to be limited to government healthcare because they would get paid shit. Look at some countries that have government healthcare. Their physicians make as much as the local target manager or some bs like that.
Sure it’s great to be helping people and being true to the profession by not making money off of it, but money compensates and corrupts most people. The taste of wealth is great, the taste of poverty isn’t. In my opinion, if one really committed themselves to practicing medicine without really giving a crap about the money then I believe he or she should invest their offtime in third world countries.
You get money and practice freely for the people in need.
Sounds like a win win situation.
I would still do it. There is a lot more to it than the money for me. I wish that others could see it this way too. I have no need for that much money.
If money isnt important to you now as a resident or med stud it will be when you get out. Exception: you have family money to help you. I’ve seen nearly everyone change their tune when they realize you have to be in it for the money to have a home, a life and some financial security as an attending physician. Believe me if you just do what you love or want and pick poorly paid specialties you will be broke unless you live somewhere really cheap. I think practicine medicine for less than $250k is laughable unless you can’t or won’t do other things such as consulting or financial services to name a few. Also, please realize that the reality once you are out in practice is that medicine is usually LESS intellectually demanding and often easier time-wisethan other top notch fielss like corporate law, banking etc.. I didnt know that until I was out of residency for 10 years!
Well, I’ll say it. I went to medical school for the money
Actually it was a combination of four factors… money, prestige, autonomy, and solving really cool problems. About a month into medical school, I realized that I had made a horrible mistake.
1. Money – reimbursements are going down.
2. Prestige – Not as impressive as you’d think.
3. Autonomy – Maybe in 10+ years. Right now I’m everyone’s bitch.
4. Intellectual Stimulation – medicine is memorization.
I should have gone into business. Maybe I still will.
^^^
Good man, it looks like you’ve caught on early.
Everybody does everything for the money. Thanks for the honest post. The truth is, people who think doctors are overpaid, are just jealous because they don’t have the werewithall to become a doctor. If doctors continue to have declining income, people will start looking for other careers, and our health care ranking will continue to drop even farther.
BTW, for all the idiots who think doctors are overpaid and HMOs cutting costs are good. HMOs have a great incentive to not provide care, physicians who are independent have an incentive to provide the best care possible. We already hear about this all the time, so-and-so died waiting for the HMO (Cigna, Kaiser, Wellpoint…) to authorize a liver transplant. Doctors who didn’t work for a HMO wouldn’t have thought twice about doing the surgery. It might cost a little more, but you are ALIVE. HMOs kill people, it is that simple.
Wow, Greg. We’re in such agreement that I almost couldn’t believe I didn’t write your post. Maybe, I sleep-typed it and randomly chose Greg as an alias.
Well, this blog rules. its for us “normal people” out getting fuckedover in med school. I just wanted to make some comments about Greg’s post.
1) Money – reimbursements are going down, but they are still pretty high. if you were expecting half a mil a year running a clinic, id say you fucked up anyway doing your research.
2) prestige – cmon, what is this anyway? a job is a job. medicine is a job. what do you want “prestige” for anyway? so you want someone to admire you for doing a job? you want someone to kiss your ass when you walk by them? Isn’t wanting “prestige” really a euphemism for some perversions for self-glorification? cmon, the realworld isnt like kindergarten – anyway, most of us hated that kid who had the most “stars” on the reward board.
3) autonomy – you’ll have it eventually. yea, be a bitch for 10 years. you knew about that before you went to med school. nothing changed there.
4) intellectual stimulation – im with ya here. medicine is memorization. however, I’ve begun to realize that its a new language that you have to learn before you can start solving problems. Ever tried to learn a foreign language? its the same way – all memorization at first. once you put it together though, then you start solving problems. im beginning to see this now that im a 3rd year (yea, im not solving any real problems – dont get me started here. i just realize how problems are solved once the skillset/knowledge base is obtained).
Anyway, thats about all. My main point is: medicine is a guarnatee. what kind of guarantee? nope, not for your millions. not for happiness. but it guarnatees putting food on your kid’s table, for the rest of your life. going into business does not guarantee that. Even hoover will tell you this.
security man. everything else is icing.
unfortunately, life is a learning process, and most of the learning is done the hard way.
-remix