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	<title>Comments on: Yes, Surgeons Are Assholes</title>
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	<link>http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/</link>
	<description>A Cynical Look At Medical School and Medical Training</description>
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		<title>By: Divided</title>
		<link>http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/comment-page-1/#comment-66453</link>
		<dc:creator>Divided</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Dec 2009 00:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/#comment-66453</guid>
		<description>What are &quot;the ends?&quot; So you get some backbone, self-asserting competence, and survive both med school, malignant residents, attendings, residency itself and the whole shit. But where does it take you? What do you do, that is so much fun that you will cut out all time doing hobbies, caring for your family and take a nap? I haven&#039;t found an answer to that question yet. I still sit on the fence concerning what I will do, as a foreign MD in a foreign land. How will a selfish bastard like myself find self-fulfillment? Research? Surgery? Cash looking at radiographs and CT scans? Do rounds as some kinda internist? Take another education? Dunno, but Hoover has some serious arguments, regardless of whatever personality issues lies beneath.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are &#8220;the ends?&#8221; So you get some backbone, self-asserting competence, and survive both med school, malignant residents, attendings, residency itself and the whole shit. But where does it take you? What do you do, that is so much fun that you will cut out all time doing hobbies, caring for your family and take a nap? I haven&#8217;t found an answer to that question yet. I still sit on the fence concerning what I will do, as a foreign MD in a foreign land. How will a selfish bastard like myself find self-fulfillment? Research? Surgery? Cash looking at radiographs and CT scans? Do rounds as some kinda internist? Take another education? Dunno, but Hoover has some serious arguments, regardless of whatever personality issues lies beneath.</p>
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		<title>By: measlyMS1</title>
		<link>http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/comment-page-1/#comment-42556</link>
		<dc:creator>measlyMS1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 23:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/#comment-42556</guid>
		<description>Re: MD&#039;s post.  Thanks for your response.  I felt the same way but wasn&#039;t sure how to articulate it.  As you could probably tell from my username I&#039;m only a first year med student, but I have a BA in Business before going into medicine.  Some experiences in international medicine, and time in the OR shadowing and selling medical equipment really changed my perspective.  I am now in medicine wholeheartedly.  

I shadow a surgeon as a first year, and I&#039;ve been thrown a hemastat at; insulted by a male nurse for no reason other than fixing a scope which he could not fix; my waist has been pinched by a male attending walking by, I&#039;ve had several physicians (surgeon and non surgeon) tell me that surgery isn&#039;t appropriate for women since all women eventually want to have children, I&#039;ve been harangued to share my opinion on healthcare policy and then upon expressing it, told that it was &#039;bullshit&#039; etc.  I&#039;ve had a surgery PA tell me that I should wear a white coat to look more professional; prompty followed by a barking physician telling me I have no business wearing a white coat since I&#039;m not a MS3 or 4 yet. 

Basically, I&#039;ve had a lot of things thrown my way (both literally and figuratively :)  .  I have not ever violated sterile field, insulted anyone, or violated instructions; I do ask stupid questions a lot, but I dont think I deserve 98% of what is doled out.  

Do I wish it didn&#039;t happen?  In retrospect; no.  At the time, yes.  

Because it taught me important lessons in humility; in what not to do when I&#039;m an attending (hopefully) and how different people deal with stress.  It taught me a lot of things.  All in all, it has been unpleasant, but I keep going back for more because I love the OR.  I can&#039;t tear myself away.  It&#039;s like another world; and its so immensely fascinating and rewarding.  I just can&#039;t stop.  Unless they have the police drag me away by my hair neanderthal style, I will probably keep at it.  And its not masochism, its perseverence and the ability to overlook hardship.  People have become too used to things being handed to them; respect included.  Respect is earned.  My attendings have earned it; sometimes they risk throwing it away, but most of the times they are either stressed or justified in it, and I don&#039;t see why it is such a cardinal mistake as to turn someone anti-medicine completely.  This is a rite of passage that while could be improved, serves a certain purpose.  To weed out those that cannot handle the much bigger pressures and disappointments, and unpopularity associated with being a surgeon or physician and dealing with negative or less than ideal outcomes. Because thats what a lot of medicine is about. 

Just like the blogger comments somewhere else about premeds not knowing what theyre talking about because theyre not there yet, I would like to point out that blogger himself may not be qualified to offer a completely authoritative opinion on physicians since he&#039;s not one himself; maybe if he had become one he would have been able to put things in perspective and understand why things were the way they were; maybe he would have behaved less than ideally with people himself, which is somethin that happens occasionally with everyone.

Discounting someones opinion just because of where they are or arent in life, however, is a dangerous thing to do, since it restricts opinions to those whose are already represented (which is why I disagree with the premed post anyway), however, returning to the main point; no pain, no gain, and as long as any laws are not broken or lines crossed, there is a purpose served by grueling training.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: MD&#8217;s post.  Thanks for your response.  I felt the same way but wasn&#8217;t sure how to articulate it.  As you could probably tell from my username I&#8217;m only a first year med student, but I have a BA in Business before going into medicine.  Some experiences in international medicine, and time in the OR shadowing and selling medical equipment really changed my perspective.  I am now in medicine wholeheartedly.  </p>
<p>I shadow a surgeon as a first year, and I&#8217;ve been thrown a hemastat at; insulted by a male nurse for no reason other than fixing a scope which he could not fix; my waist has been pinched by a male attending walking by, I&#8217;ve had several physicians (surgeon and non surgeon) tell me that surgery isn&#8217;t appropriate for women since all women eventually want to have children, I&#8217;ve been harangued to share my opinion on healthcare policy and then upon expressing it, told that it was &#8216;bullshit&#8217; etc.  I&#8217;ve had a surgery PA tell me that I should wear a white coat to look more professional; prompty followed by a barking physician telling me I have no business wearing a white coat since I&#8217;m not a MS3 or 4 yet. </p>
<p>Basically, I&#8217;ve had a lot of things thrown my way (both literally and figuratively <img src='http://www.medschoolhell.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   .  I have not ever violated sterile field, insulted anyone, or violated instructions; I do ask stupid questions a lot, but I dont think I deserve 98% of what is doled out.  </p>
<p>Do I wish it didn&#8217;t happen?  In retrospect; no.  At the time, yes.  </p>
<p>Because it taught me important lessons in humility; in what not to do when I&#8217;m an attending (hopefully) and how different people deal with stress.  It taught me a lot of things.  All in all, it has been unpleasant, but I keep going back for more because I love the OR.  I can&#8217;t tear myself away.  It&#8217;s like another world; and its so immensely fascinating and rewarding.  I just can&#8217;t stop.  Unless they have the police drag me away by my hair neanderthal style, I will probably keep at it.  And its not masochism, its perseverence and the ability to overlook hardship.  People have become too used to things being handed to them; respect included.  Respect is earned.  My attendings have earned it; sometimes they risk throwing it away, but most of the times they are either stressed or justified in it, and I don&#8217;t see why it is such a cardinal mistake as to turn someone anti-medicine completely.  This is a rite of passage that while could be improved, serves a certain purpose.  To weed out those that cannot handle the much bigger pressures and disappointments, and unpopularity associated with being a surgeon or physician and dealing with negative or less than ideal outcomes. Because thats what a lot of medicine is about. </p>
<p>Just like the blogger comments somewhere else about premeds not knowing what theyre talking about because theyre not there yet, I would like to point out that blogger himself may not be qualified to offer a completely authoritative opinion on physicians since he&#8217;s not one himself; maybe if he had become one he would have been able to put things in perspective and understand why things were the way they were; maybe he would have behaved less than ideally with people himself, which is somethin that happens occasionally with everyone.</p>
<p>Discounting someones opinion just because of where they are or arent in life, however, is a dangerous thing to do, since it restricts opinions to those whose are already represented (which is why I disagree with the premed post anyway), however, returning to the main point; no pain, no gain, and as long as any laws are not broken or lines crossed, there is a purpose served by grueling training.</p>
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		<title>By: ...</title>
		<link>http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/comment-page-1/#comment-32509</link>
		<dc:creator>...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/#comment-32509</guid>
		<description>This blog ROCKS!! 

I wish I would have read it before I took the dive into pursuing a career in medicine. Maybe then my idealist viewpoint could have been quickly realigned with reality.

Debt - more than you will ever imagine. 
Regret - more than you will ever imagine.

I think about it everyday. I attitude check in cycles, because I have no choice but to finish so I can pay back my damn student loans. 

Good thing is, I got an MBA as a backup.

The current system of clinical medical education is like entering prison. You just want to go in and do your time with no problems; but you most certainly will be fucked - even multiple times, before you get out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This blog ROCKS!! </p>
<p>I wish I would have read it before I took the dive into pursuing a career in medicine. Maybe then my idealist viewpoint could have been quickly realigned with reality.</p>
<p>Debt &#8211; more than you will ever imagine.<br />
Regret &#8211; more than you will ever imagine.</p>
<p>I think about it everyday. I attitude check in cycles, because I have no choice but to finish so I can pay back my damn student loans. </p>
<p>Good thing is, I got an MBA as a backup.</p>
<p>The current system of clinical medical education is like entering prison. You just want to go in and do your time with no problems; but you most certainly will be fucked &#8211; even multiple times, before you get out.</p>
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		<title>By: DoctorRight09</title>
		<link>http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/comment-page-1/#comment-28321</link>
		<dc:creator>DoctorRight09</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 03:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/#comment-28321</guid>
		<description>The ends do justify the means, but med school is a rocky road, for sure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The ends do justify the means, but med school is a rocky road, for sure.</p>
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		<title>By: MD</title>
		<link>http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/comment-page-1/#comment-27932</link>
		<dc:creator>MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 21:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medschoolhell.com/2008/11/02/yes-surgeons-are-assholes/#comment-27932</guid>
		<description>Perhaps you fancy yourself a &quot;catcher in the rye&quot; for an entire generation.  Good for you, you&#039;re doing the world quite a service.  I suspect your personality issues may be worse than any surgeon you ever worked under; otherwise you&#039;d have been able to handle some of the things you complain about a little bit better.

As for medical education, there were things I despised about it for sure.  You do occasionally make some valid points.  I also despised certain things about high school.  And college.  And jobs I held over the years when I was a teenager.  But I recognized the importance of them, got through it, and moved on having learned from the experience.

The question you have to ask yourself along the way is, &quot;do the ends justify the means?&quot;

And if the answer is yes, then the next question you should ask yourself is, &quot;am I going to let this abusive resident/attending/ridiculous medical school curriculum requirement, etc. get in my way of doing what I want to do?&quot;

And if question number 2 you answer &quot;no&quot;, then you stick it out and come out on top.  At that point you can say you didn&#039;t let the bastards get you down.

A different approach would be to fold, go home and blog about it, and hope people follow your lead to make you feel better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps you fancy yourself a &#8220;catcher in the rye&#8221; for an entire generation.  Good for you, you&#8217;re doing the world quite a service.  I suspect your personality issues may be worse than any surgeon you ever worked under; otherwise you&#8217;d have been able to handle some of the things you complain about a little bit better.</p>
<p>As for medical education, there were things I despised about it for sure.  You do occasionally make some valid points.  I also despised certain things about high school.  And college.  And jobs I held over the years when I was a teenager.  But I recognized the importance of them, got through it, and moved on having learned from the experience.</p>
<p>The question you have to ask yourself along the way is, &#8220;do the ends justify the means?&#8221;</p>
<p>And if the answer is yes, then the next question you should ask yourself is, &#8220;am I going to let this abusive resident/attending/ridiculous medical school curriculum requirement, etc. get in my way of doing what I want to do?&#8221;</p>
<p>And if question number 2 you answer &#8220;no&#8221;, then you stick it out and come out on top.  At that point you can say you didn&#8217;t let the bastards get you down.</p>
<p>A different approach would be to fold, go home and blog about it, and hope people follow your lead to make you feel better.</p>
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