Pre-Med Haters
Here’s an unfinished draft I pulled up from way back in early 2008. I’m thinking it still applies:
I think some of the naive pre-meds have been drinking a bit too much of the Hatorade lately. I’ve seen numerous threads pop up in the pre-allo forum at SDN referencing Med School Hell and typically the comments are negative. Here are my responses:
- You’re shitting your pants
In reality you think that medicine is rainbows and butterflies, but you’re scared that I may just be right. After all, I’ve gone through medical school and you haven’t. This little tidbit of information makes your acceptance look a lot less appealing. - You think you know it all
That 3.8 GPA and medical mission trip in Africa has instilled in your mind that you know all. Therefore anyone that says anything negative about medicine is a dumbass and doesn’t know shit. - You’re young
Most of you are in your late teens or early twenties, and have gone from high school to college and then hopefully straight to medical school. You’ve never worked a real “job” in your life. Just wait until you’re working from 7am-7pm 5-6 days a week dealing with all that medicine has to give. Until then, shut the fuck up.
Thinking back, I do remember what it’s like to be a pre-med. I didn’t know shit and neither do you.
Another thing Hoover is that a lot of these kids come from affluent/upper middle class families, and frankly they’ve lived the good life (relatively speaking).
They know how the system work because their parents were in it, and in the end don’t let anyone bullshit you it’s all about the job security and money. The ones who say otherwise are those who are hypocrites and are the ones who are truly worried about these things the most a lot of hte times.
I stopped going to SDN because it’s a fucked up culture over there. Is there useful info? Yeah, but there are far too many losers with no lives with 10,000 post counts and other shit (seriously who posts their GPA their E.C.s, etc.) that makes them very one-sided.
Fuck SDN my friend.
Also, most doctors are just nerdy geeks from high school with ego issues growing up. They’re usually the beta delta gamma type and so they have to compensate by focusing on that, which is logical and commendable. It just means that there will be sacrifices in other parts of life such as being socially savvy/calibrated (being competent isn’t enough.)
But it all balances out in the end, don’t you suppose?
http://citystreams.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/dropping-out-of-medical-school-uncensored/
why the fuck would that person drop out of after 3 years of medical school? Probably rich, flunekd out, or a combination of the two.
Those 50 reaosns that hte person posts are just bullshit imo.
The question that remains is what other field can one do if people haven’t been trained in biology/science/etc.?
Most of us are not going to be business owners. The health field in the end gives guaranteed job security int his fucked up economy.
I’m having trouble as it is finding a job after college with my B.S. in Biochemistry.
Even if I didn’t go for residency, the M.D. is useful as Hoover showed in a different post.
Hi,
Just wantd to ask you something. I thought that Biochemistry was a new advancing field. But now u tell that u have trouble finding a job. What do you think are da job opportunities for people pursuing this degree??
Thanx
well the ideal situation would be to live at home (free housing), and make some money but you’d probably end up making like $25,000-35,000 for the year that you work and you’ll probably top $40,000-$43,000 with that B.S. Biochemistry degree.
A B.S. is literally bullshit, and mind you my gpa is high and i have an excellent resume too.
You’re gonna have to go to grad school and at least do a master’s (then you can be making 60k a year topping at around 70-80k especially if you go government)
a phd is not worth it unless you absolutely love it. The opportunity costs, and the payback are pretty lousy imo.
But it shows you where the demand is in this economy and its for the healthfield (medicine, dentistry, nursing, nurse anesthetics, pa schools, optometry, etc.) and the HARD sciences like engineering.
Your job opportunities would be med school, but I’d recommend dental school as its only a 4 year degree, won’t be hit with universal healthcare (which I think is a good thing don’t get me wrong but for me personally I want to recoup the money that i’ve lost over 12 years of OPPORTUNITY COSTS AND DEBT and not be a wage earner/slave to some crappy government-botched version of medicare).
You’ll make more money as a dentist, have better flexible hours, get all the status/prestige/respect by others, and you’ll be able to do cosmetic stuff where you can make serious dough, and not be hit directly by the revamping of healthcare (the specialties in medicine are gonna take the hit).
Your other (practical) options are doing a master’s in nursing then doing somehting u liek there. If you want to make serious dough even more than a lot of family practitioners/internists/psychiatrists, you can become a nurse anethest which can make 150k a year working 40 hours a week (not a bad deal when you consider the overall training after college can be as low as 4 years).
Choose your poison wisely. Enjoy what you do, but don’t enjoy it too much because odds are you’ll probably make an artist’s salary in that case.
Pick a job that is something that you don’t abhor, but you can tolerate in the long run (until you crap out at the age of 67 when retirement would be).
Don’t do something that will tax you so that you burn out.
Passion is overrated. Job security, a good pay (anything over 100k a year), and low to medium stress is one of hte keys to happiness.
The others are good health (eathing healthy and exercising 5 days a week – REMEMBER DOCTORS HAVE THE WORST HEALTH OUT OF ANY OTHER PROFESSION LOL)
Good friends, a good family, and a good wife.
And take it slowly, don’t rush into medical school or dental school or whatever you want without researching/shadowing/asking questions (for your OWN BENEFIT NOT TO LOOK GOOD) what you want in life.
Take a year or two or three off, it’s all good. I would only start worrying about your grand scheme professional/career goals if you still haven’t figured out what you’re going to do around the age of 25-26.
i can tell you a personal anecdote about a DO who fucked up in college, and his parents pressured him to go to Poland to medical school right out of college and the kid obviously wasn’t prepared/ready for it.
So rather than fucking up in medical school too, he took time off (3 years after college) and became a full time bartender, worked odd-jobs here and there, and travelled, did the whole “I’m young” scene, and then when he went to DO school, he was so chill/laid back/FOCUSED/MATURE he was at the top of his classes and ENDED UP DOING DERMATOLOGY.
Now if you know anything about dermatology it’s one of the coziest specialties but also THE most difficult thing to get into ESPECIALLY AS A FUCKING DO.
Take your time kid, and don’t rush anything.
But do work a job to get some “40 hour-50 hour a week” experience.
And don’t go to law school unless you’re going to a top 14 school otherwise you’re fucked. Law is worse than medicine.
also, if you take time off and you earn any money, don’t buy stupid shit (just buy some nice clothes, good clean food and any oither essentials), just focus on improving yourself. Work out (www.stronglifts.com), eat healthy, learn how to pick up chicks/men/whatever,
and ALSO LEARN HOW TO INVEST YOUR MONEY PROPERLY.
Invest in a ROTH IRA, and anything left over in a 401k. Save a little for a rainy day here or two, and pay off any college debt you have.
Some books to read in your time off:
The Game, Breakthrough Rapid Reading, The Art of War, The Millionaire Next Door (important one), A Dummy’s Guide to Personal Finance, The Richest Man in Babylon, and Dale Carnegie’s “How To Win Friends and Influence People.”
Also, join a crossfit gym and toastmasters to improve your speaking abilities/oratory skills if you have the time.
You have one life, don’t fuck it up.
Hoover – I agree 98% with your post! I think there’s one more reason that the pre-meds would fail to recognize your wisdom. They still feel extreme loyalty to the “cause.” There’s an almost cult-like dedication in those early years. The sacrifices still seem worth it when your mom is bragging about you – “her daughter the doctor”. After a few years of scut-work and pimping, those kids will be singing a different tune.
Grace – Thanks for the link love!
Hmm – You are such a cute little troll. I’m picturing green hair. Or maybe orange? Want to come leave nasty comments on my blog? I haven’t had a pet troll in a long time!
ha ha citystreams I didn’t realize how low your ego really was. I still think you’re a dumbass for dropping out of 3 years with oh I don’t know 80,000-90,000 dollars in debt. Everyone knows that the 4th year is the easiest out of the 4 years. There’s nothing trollish about what I said before. I still think you’re an idiot.
Oh by the way, Christianity is a hoax, and your belief in Jesus is pointless. Now THAT’S a trollish comment. Have a nice day fattie
Yo Hoover, what would med. school have been like had you used adderall, ritalin, etc. Do you think you’d be burnt out at this point if you did that or no? I’ve primarily used my wits and intelligence to get me through college but my memory skills are terrible. All my classes that required thinking I get good grades in, but the biology classes that are just PURE memorization, I have the least motivation to do (because I know that nothing sticks and after memorizing the stuff I feel like I want to get rid of that knowledge). I mean the class I’m taking right now is Evolution of Vertebrates which entails memorizing a lot of info about different species in the right order, and their structures/phsiology and I had to take it for my bio requirement. It’s like the professor is pulling straws out of a hat. Is this how medical school is? I feel like all those kids who were dumbasses are going to get their “revenge” for the hard work they’ve developed whereas me I’ve been coasting along with my intelligence. I think I’m gonna get fucked in the ass by citystreams up here (that’s a trollish comment for you buddy LOL) and the other pre-med freakazoid gunners with narcissitic disorder/OCD.
btw, i’ve gone through your whole blog, so forgive me if you already answered this beforehand, but are there any residencies that don’t require too much memorization and just require a basic skillset? I’m willing to do work just work that is intelligent in nature/interesting/has immediate use.
Maybe I have ADD/ADHD, frankly I don’t give a fuck, though they say that specializing would make life pretty damn boring for me because it’s way too much detail on one subject.
Damn, I really don’t know what else I can do in life. I mean, I’ll be honest I wanted to convince myself that I did it for all the good reasons to help humanity, not in it for hte money, etc. etc. but ahhh hell I can’t deny who I am deep down (AND THE SAME GOES FOR ALL OYUF UCKING PRE-MED GUNNERS TOO YOU JUST DENY WHO YOU ARE AS WELL), that I want a nice cushy job where I make a lot of money with job security and an incy wincy amount of prestige to the mix.
Like what else is there that has that combination? I could do a business, but I don’t have business acumen, teaching is a pain in the ass in its own respects, law is an oversaturated profession as it is… basically it seems that the only two options are becoming a phd in some science but research is so fucking boring and to become a professor probably means a whole lot of stress/frustration to get to that point.
It seems that medicine is the only field that is guaranteed, I mean I can get a job as a professor in medicine work half the time as most people and still make 100,000 a year what with summers off, winter breaks off, etc. etc. How nice is that?
Oh yeah I can have a sex operation and get a boob job, cut off my dick and make a vagina, and become the most attractive lady in the world and marry some rich plastic surgeon/French President.
But I’m afraid my beauty might be too much for the world to handle.
” I mean I can get a job as a professor in medicine work half the time as most people and still make 100,000 a year what with summers off, winter breaks off, etc. etc. How nice is that?”
You’d have to start off as an instructor or perhaps asst professor, and you won’t be getting summers and winter breaks off. A majority of your time will be spent taking care of patients.
“are there any residencies that don’t require too much memorization and just require a basic skillset?”
Psychiatry. I memorized most of what I needed to know about psychiatry before I even started my medicine/psych residency. The skill set is constantly developing, even though psychiatry is only a minority of my practice.
Sadly, outside of school most people generally expect you to work for your money. It’s nice and all you aced organic chemistry, but if you can’t or won’t apply it towards meeting other people’s needs, you’re pretty much as useless to the world as that schizophrenic panhandling on the street corner and should expect similar compensation for gracing the world with your presence. Maybe less, at least the panhandler makes people feel good about themselves. Applying knowledge anywhere generally takes some measure of effort and boredom.
If there was high demand somewhere else for bright kids who coasted through grade school and college and never had to work very hard for anything in their life, med school would be a much different place, though. If what you have to offer the world is a good memory and good test-taking skills, you can do worse than medicine. You’ll be sick of them long before it’s over.
Hey Hoover!
You are absolutely right about medicine. And the worst thing is when you are in residency the bastards can just dismiss you for no reason at all and there is no way you can appeal your case because the law is always against the resident (they want to “protect the public” against “bad doctors”).
So all that training may just be thrown away because someone just doesn’t “like” you for whatever reason. This is what is happening to me now, and I am in pathology, which is supposed to be one of these “benign” specialties. Ironically, when I used to complain about the crap I endure, my family members always said “well, at least you have job security”.
All the premeds reading this, why not just work for a pharmaceutical company or something? I wish I knew then what I know now…
Long time Zuwie. I remember when you used to comment way back. Sorry to hear you’re having trouble with your residency.
Wow. I’d be very interested in knowing about your particular circumstances, simply because I’m thinking about path as a nice way out of clinical medicine (+ other reasons, lifestyle amongst them).
Q, I can give you more details if you PM me to my SDN account. (Zuwie).
hey hoover how do old exams help in medical school? Do they make the tests a lot easier? Or no? Do you recommend that I shoudl talk to seinors juniors sophomores and even current freshmen to collect old exams?
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Hooover, I can’t post pedobear yet I can post Chris Hansen and Ollie Willilams. Have you blocked my ASCII art? I want to become a pediatrician!!!
Just wanted to say that I love the website. It’s been giving me some great info on what it means to be a Med-student.
Can’t say it’s deterred me from wanting to become a Medical professional, but it has given me some insight into how to get there and what to expect (for example, I decided to stick with my Bachelors in Music Education instead of a science degree while taking my Pre-med course work after reading your article on pre-med majors).
All I’ve got to say is great stuff and I’m looking forward to more.
Hey Hoover, I have one question for you, maybe you’ve thought about this before, but after reading your blog and how much medical school was a waste of time of cramming and then forgetting, could one theoretically jump into residency without having learned anything in medical school and still do a good/safe job and do better than the kids in medical school?
I ask this because maybe medical school is too long and too stressful than it needs to be. It also seems to be the case that the students are brainwashed into thinking that all the abuse that is done is to make the student a good doctor, but i don’t believei t tobe the case anymore. It seems to be more the case of abuse from the hospitals and medical schools and them knowing that they can do whatever the hell they want with you because you pay them. Basically you are free labor no?
What changes, then, if you were in control of how medical school was done here in America would you change. Would you cover less material (because you’re going to forget it anyways), would you drop 4th year, would you make 3rd year less intense, etc?
If these changes were made, then, would you have gone through residency (assumign that residency had the changes as well or no?)
Also, what I speak of from before seems to be true in Australia/Europe/England. The doctors seem more chill there and happier too.
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Whats funny is I did 2 semesters in The Dominican Republic where medicine is much more shorter than over here and the amount of work the students had was ridiculous yet they become MD’s With In 6.5 years. Im actually deciding to go for the medical career god knows what awaits me. Fcuk it
Man I wish I found this blog before I even thought about applying to med school
Studying for the USMLE sucks. Fuck I just want to go to the beach and watch a movie, not spend 12 hours a day learning this rubbish.
what would you have done instead “soo”
Instead of going to med school? I’d be studying film or journalism or something that makes me happy instead of making my parents happy. :X
I’ve fit the DSM-IV criteria for depression for a long time now
yeah but with this economy if you’ve been following it people are getting laid off left and right. Lawyers have it bad, film makers have it bad, journalism is a terrible field now that the major newspapers and even local ones are going through shit.
Unless you’re rich, marry rich, or have an excellent business idea, then medicine/dentistry/health field (PA/Nursing/x-ray technician/etc.) is one idea, or go into engineering or teaching.
If you’re depressed, you should take a year off and do some low intensity research where you don’t have to do much. Between 2nd and 3rd year is a good idea.
There’s no rush afterall.
I think the worse part of it is that I feel like I’m going to be spending my 20s studying for endless exams I don’t care about, being in a hospital, etc. I graduated college early and sort of got pushed into med school directly after so I just feel really burned out. I’m 22 years old and it’s super depressing to think that I’ll still be at this thing until I’m 29, if I do a residency and everything.
And I’m really not in this for the money (I feel extremely shallow for saying this, but I am relatively well off), just for my parents and the pride they say goes along with it. Whatever.
Thanks for the suggestion, though
I did really enjoy research when I was an undergrad, maybe I should try some of that. Thanks for letting me rant at you 
Hey,
U mean u got into med school at 22?? I thought med school was 6 years?? So how come ul be in it until ur 29?
Im rely sorry if this is an utterly dumb question
Hope ul answer it…
N im rely sory to hear about ur depression. I know parents have dis idea that becoming a doc is da ultimate thing
Hey
I got in med school right before I turned 21 … med school is 4 years, but then residency is at least another 4 years (and I hear it’s a LOT worse than med school), that’s what I meant ^^. It’s not a dumb question! I was just being confusing, I’m sorry.
Thank you, btw <3 Your message made me feel a lot better, you know!
honestly, I’mt aking a year off before going to meidcal school doing all the things that I couldn’t do when I was studying full time.
Improving my game with girls, picking up hobbies (guitar), being a bum at home watching movies/playing video games/listening to music/NOT BEING STRESSED and just recharging my battery.
And honestly, I’m glad with this decision.
I have a 3.8 GPA in biology and a 32 on the MCAT, so I’m not taking a year off becuase I have too. I worked hard to get where I am today, and honestly a break is nice.
Oh yeah, having no debt from going to a cheap ass state school is pretty nice.
The reason why I suggested research wasn’t so that you would be doing work, but rather so that you could be doing something unproductive where you dont’ have to think so much or study. Of course, this means finding a lab that is pretty chill where you have low expectations and where you can get out of work often or whatever.
The reason for this is so that when its time to apply for residency, when they ask you what you did on your “year off” you don’t say “i travelled, relaxed, NOTHING” but rather “I did research on breast cancer” or some bullshit like that to show that you were being a supernerd.
I get the benefit that I get to enjoy a year off in MY TWENTIES, hell maybe I’ll take two.
My philosophy is this, is it better to “lose” a year or two of my twenties (yeah bullshit its the prime of your youth) and having low stress and dying at the age of 80 versus going in right after college superstressed and coming out old, bald, and fat and dying at the age of 70 out of misery.
Besides, going in right after college, if you’re burnt out and haven’t lived life, then well you’re not gonna perform as well as is clearly the case with you now.
Recharge that battery of yours so that by the time you finish up medical school again it won’t burn you out.
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hmmmmmm:
First, get into medical school and then get through your first 2 years, then talk shit! You are still nothing but a pre-med. This post was aimed at people like you, and the smack you were talking is the same type of shit that gunners talk. Why do you think this website is called med school hell, because for some people it is hell! I hated it and went back to running my 2 businesses. Go through hell and then talk shit!
If you don’t have any motivation, don’t even think of going to med school, you need it to do med school because the first 2 years are straight memorization. And for a cushy job, there is no such thing! If anyone sounds like a rich brat, it sounds like you. Everyone knows you need to work in order to have money. Hate to tell you this but there is no such thing as job security in medicine either, it just tends to be lower than other professions. Between malpractice insurance and general financial state of medicine the money and security are less than before. And read Zuwies comment to further explain the security in medicine!
Man! I want to go to Med School but just tremendously terrified of all those student loans I would have to repay. I’m terrified of paying them now from my undergrad studies. I need to build up my confidence to take on such a time consuming situation such as Med school.
but then again i’m a poo poo head*
*i’m a poo poo head because when i eat poo it sticks in my head.**
** also, mean patients fling their poop at me in a fit of primal rage
From the original stang: Hey pre-med, how can I have mean patients fling their poop at me, if I don’t have any patients. Not in medicine any longer, moron.
haha, why don’t you get a life instead of posting something on sunday morning at 1am. Go out and try to get laid instead of false-posting! haha loser
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HI GUYS BILLY MAYS HERE FOR ANOTHER FANTASTIC PRODUCT!
I’m curious hoover, what do u consider to be a “real job”
I’ve worked many jobs throughout college, (call centers, retail – I’ve done a lot of sales jobs as I’m just damn good at selling and make a ton of commission). I worked 30+ hours a week throughout college, and graduated without a penny of debt cause of all the money I made while working in sales.
Would u say these are real jobs? Are u referring to students who have never worked a day in their life?
I’m just curious – not having a go at you.
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Arnold Here to let you know that due to California state’s fiscal crisis we will be slashing salaries for all physicians by 55%.
Your website reminds me of Voice of America or The Epoch Times or any other anti-communist (or anti-anything, really) propaganda. You have years of blog posts saying, “This just in, med school is still HORRIBLE!!!” Not that I disagree with you or anything, I’m just amused by the rhetorical repetition.
First of all, I couldn’t agree more. Not that med school sucks for all people, but it rightfully sucks for some (many might argue many). The simple fact is this, medicine, like most careers, is something that you have to truly want to do. Not the illusion of medicine that so many pre-meds get from watching hot chicks on House, but the REAL aspect of medicine. Just like you will hate nursing and want to kill yourself if you become a nurse for monetary gain and financial security, same applies to an MD in the same situation. Go to allnurses.com and you will see what I mean. Those who are happy tend to be the ones who couldn’t imagine being anything other than a nurse, and they knew what the actual scope and politics of the job were before they applied to nursing school.
Med school and becoming an MD is not some noble dream. It’s a science based highly skilled clinical career. Nothing more.
I can’t believe that there is a med student on here who is depressed because they decided to go to med school due to the wishes of their family and not on their own accord. Captain Obvious says, What the f did you think would happen?! If you’re not 16, why are mommy and daddy making your life choices for you? You sound like one of those people on SDN that another poster pointed out.
What’s even more shocking is that med school application processes are suppoed to weed out people who don’t actually have the passion to be MDs (and are not aware of realities of med school and medicine due to lack of their own research) and are in it primarily for money, job security, family obligation, etc. I’m not going to say that a good MD candidate can’t consider pay as part of their reasoning to attend med school, but anyone who doesn’t WANT to be an MD on their own accord should never make it past that screening process.
I should mention though that I am in Canada, where we take only the brightest and best who are committed. Having a daddy who donates to the university or an uncle who’s an MD doesn’t get you a seat in med school here. In the US, that may be a major part of the problem. People are getting in for the wrong reasons, and those with the actual drive and desire (but not the handout) are getting discoraged because they have to compete in popularity contest residency spots with Big Shot med students.
Medicine is like anything else. You have to want what it really is, and not the illusion of it. Do your research first. Hence, why I like this blog. Med school is NOT for everyone, hence why it’s so hard to get in. High GPAs and research only speaks to your ability to learn medicine. Interviews and ECs (and essays in the US) are put in place to determine who will get through med, and who will actually end up practicing and satisfied as a doctor.
For those pre-meds knocking Hoover, he is actually trying to do some of you a favor. The first step of being a good MD is listening and analyzing what you are presented with. If you fail that test, you may ironically want to re-consider what he is saying. Those who should apply to med school are those who have realistically considered all the pros and cons.
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i have to say i disagree with the notion of having to want something before you should do it. Though I agree that no one should feel forced to go to med school by their family at the age of 20, most doctors who are now satisfied with their profession did not have a clear and realistic picture of medicine when they started, and many had doubts about whether to stay in med school. This is natural. To say, you have to know what you are getting into 150% before you apply, and then you have to want it 250% the whole time you are being trained is just foolish…and a pipe dream.
I don’t think we disagree entirely. My point was simply that the innate desire must be there on some level to reduce the risk of a person hating medicine. My prime point were the people who apply to med school due to reasons such as parental suggestion and/or obligation. Yes, to have doubts is natural, but to expect that med students have not done any research to see what the field is REALLY like and if they still want a part of it is not. Generally speaking, most pre-meds are expected to job shadow MDs/work/volunteer/interview with MDs to gain insight *before* they apply to med school. If this is not favoured in your country, it should be. We need doctors, and we don’t have med school spots to waste on those who don’t want to be there. My logic was (flawed or not), that by at least reducing the number of people who apply to meds without the personal desire and research into the field, we can *reduce* the risk of people who are unhappy with their choice. It’s not perfect, but it is the method med schools attempt to utilize. Of course there are exceptions both ways, and I can’t agree more that some docs who had serious doubts and were without a clue are now rolling like a happy pig in shit. That’s awesome. But I think my point(s) still stand.
also, to “soo”..the advice given to you by “hoover’s bitch” is good advice. I actually was in a similar situation to yourself…also started med school at age 20 (in fact sadly I only turned 20 during my second month of med school) . I got in through merit but would have wanted to extend my years in college a bit…but I felt pressured to do the opposite, because my family is very middle class, and my dad is a bit older than most people my age’s dads, and he works very hard for not very much money….so I felt guilty, like I needed to get a move on with my career so he could retire in peace, knowing that I am independent and settled in my career. Bad thing to make decisions based on guilt. I also got depressed and it has been a long hard road since then, but I have decided to stick with medicine…I would echo the advice of hoover’s bitch and say, take some time off for yourself and have fun, but do something nerdy and official sounding, like research, during your year off as well to tell your med school and in the future, to residency programs. During your year off, do everything you feel you have denied yourself or want to do but are afraid you won’t be able to do once you get back on the treadmill known as med school. I was given this advice by a doctor who was also a patient at a clinic where I shadowed…and it was great advice.
advice is always free, but to act on it — that’s the real money shot.
Hoover, yeah people are definitely going to think your cynicism sucks ass. But the premed prima donnas, and even the more grounded ones, have to hear it. Take my case. Reading your blog created this great inner-dialogue going which basically confirmed that after lofty high school dreams, ambivalence later in college, and then newfound motivation post-graduation, I wasn’t ready to make any final decision about med school.
So i took a trip, physically and mentally. I’m working abroad pursuing the one other industry I thought I’d love. Totally non-medical related, and i do love it. But what this blog (and other sources) forced me to do was consider. I agree that too many kids go blindly into medicine – I would have been one of those if it weren’t for my gift of indecisiveness. (that was a joke.) Now I’m a lot closer to making that big decision, but it took months of introspection. And for that, i think this wildly cynical med school blog rocks.
-What this blog proves is that no one among pre-med or med students has been told what it means to be a doctor.
There is a basic, fundamental reason as to why medicine is such a great field. Sadly, even senior physicians don’t know it and therefore cannot share it with their students. Or don’t want to
I just wanted to clarify that my first comment was a reply to ded2med’s comment…not directed at Hoover. I also like this blog, it’s a good antidote to all the misconceptions about med school that most people have…
Is this blog ever going to be updated? Or are we left with a message board for pedobear ASCII art?
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Oh Hai Guys, Here I am at Med.School Convention 2009:
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1919193
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I am 23 years old…I have a Master of Science degree, am a licensed EMT-B…and i’m not sure if I want to do medical school…I am not even sure what I want to do in life other than go into medicine and make a decent living for myself and future family. I also teach part-time as a professor. Any suggestions on what I should do with my life?
Don’t go into medicine — it’s not worth it even if you think you want to go into it. The prestige is going downhill and is no longer highly coveted/respected, you’ll make a little bit more in the entirety of your lifetime (maybe about $500,000) if you went into medicine but by the time you get to fully enjoy the lifestyle you’ll be too late and have missed a lot of opportunities in your life like having kids and having a solid family.
I’m not saying that you won’t have these opportunities, but that they will suffer, and odds are you probably want to have kids by the age of 35 (and by the time you’re done with residency judging from the fact you’ve done a 2 years masters, means you’ll be done with schooling by the time you’re 32-33).
Can you handle that?
It’s not sane, and it’s not in our biological design to spend so much time on studies.
ENJOY. YOUR. LIFE.
The sad thing for women (I’m on a tangent here) is even though it has equalized pays and opened up more opportunities for women, it has also harmed them as well.
Stripping your women of their right to raise the kids and pushing them into the workplace for all the wrong reasons so they could become exploited as consumers, and taxed by the government.
Don’t get me wrong, I strongly advocate equal economic opportunities for women, my argument is that women are now forced to work and sacrifice the traditional role of raising kids, and it would be great if there wasn’t some side-benefit that the government (more taxable income) and employers (more supply, thus lower wages for all).
Anyways, some Westerners like to emphasize the advancements of women in the past 100 years in order to make them feel better for the thousands of years of horrible history their women have lived. But, Western civilization hasn’t learned anything about true equality between men and women. Take away the motive to profit off of them and you’ll find basic attitudes towards women are older than medieval. Hell, the motive to profit doesn’t even change much. Women are objectified more than ever in an effort to gain more profits from men, who still have more money.
With that aside, I do understand the importance of financial independence especially since you can never truly rely on anyone and thus I would recommend that you either go down the path of teaching as a part-time professor and maybe getting tenure (but that’s probably hard isn’t it?)
I think you would be happier (I say so myself because I’m in my 2nd year of residency as a MAN and I’ve lost my fiancee, who I don’t blame at all, all for the STATUS AND so called PRESTIGE) if you went into nurse anesthesiology or becoming a physican’s assistant, maybe optometry, dentistry or podiatry.
Out of these choices, I realize that everyone deep down wants to be in something that has status (doctors are on the top of the totem pole but sacrifice so so much that it’s not even funny…) and thus you may be tempted to go into dentistry which is only 4 years long, will give you a comfortable, dermatology-lifestyle without all the hassles of prolonged residency, insurance companies (a lot of what you do is cash based), and shit from the government.
Remember, universal healthcare is going to hit medicine first and probably stay at that level for many years before hitting a secure field like dentistry.
Also, nurse anaesthesiology pays pretty flipping well. Get your RN in one year through an accelerated program (you probably already have a lot of credits from undergrad and your master’s that would give pass for the pre-reqs), and then take a year to two or three years getting work experience (to becom ea nurse anesthesiologist you need to have at least one year of work experience before applying for the program), and then apply for the master’s in nurse anesthetics.
After 2 years of training, you’d end up making 150,000 a year working 35-40 hours a week with no call, no overhead, and none of the hassles that an anesthesiologist has.
It’s a pretty fucking solid career, and if I could rewind time and do things over again, I would have gone into dentistry or nurse anesthetics.
I’m kinda starting to figure out most people of med student/resident age don’t really know what they want or won’t admit it anyway, so the rest is just academic. Yeah, lots of med students/residents are miserable. Lots of 20-30 somethings are regardless of circumstances. If you really wanted a spouse and kids, you’d probably find a way to get them regardless of med school. People do it, it’s all a matter of where you set your priorities. Starving third-worlders and 100-hour a week corporate wage slaves manage it, you could too if you wanted to. If you didn’t have med school, you’d still find some other reason to sabotage yourself and wallow in self-pity. But ultimately the studying and ass-kissing are their own easy excuse from making the active effort to have a life, too. All you have to do is sit back and take it, like a beast of burden.
I guess treatment varies, but I frequently get the feeling that the same people bitching about the work environment of medicine would be bitching about the corporate world or the civil service world or the academic world or the criminal world or wherever they set down. Would still have shitty or absent romantic relationships. You’re still going to be you regardless of whether you’re in med school or not, so How’s that for cynicism. And guess what, things have been going downhill in America for the past 20-30 years for pretty much everyone who actually works for a living. The grass just always looks greener on the other side. Plenty of regular, clear-headed folks would happily and wisely switch places with a doctor if they had the ability and opportunity, because their lives suck, too, but they don’t even have job security. How much of the population in general just can’t wait to go to work every morning? Doctors are just one small part of the overall trend.
Hi Lambchop,
I have actually applied to 3 accelerated bsn programs in my state that start next summer and I am really excited as it is only a one year program (which by the way were not as bad in terms of applying as it is for medical school). One particular school that I am interested in has a BSN to DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice) program that is 21/2 years long too…but I think I will be more likely to do the RN, work a year or so in ICU, OR, or ER (As that is a requirement of the nurse anesthetist program) and then enter the nurse anesthetist program instead. However, I really want a doctorate..I guess there’s just something to me always wanting to be called “dr.” but i’m not sure which doctorate degree I should go for that would be worth the cost and respected. What do you think? Thank you soo much again for your comments!
You have no idea how much I appreciate your comments.
I’ve attached of a graph of the money you’d make as a doctor in the long haul versus a UPS truck driver.
http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7285/doctorincomechart.gif
How about that for perspective? (I double majored in economics and business in case it means anything)
that chart is retarded and completely twisted to make your point.
1. i see you are trying to make a point about hourly wage. but working for UPS doesn’t give you the option of working as many hours as you want. there’s only a certain max amt of hours the company is operating and will give you. if you make $20,000 an hour but are only allowed to work one hour per year, guess what you’re still a poor shit. so really, going the UPS route you should only look at column 1 – you’d have more time but you’d still be over a million dollars behind the doctor and living a fairly chill but really average low-middle class lifestyle.
2. why did you stop at year 27? if i’m reading your table correctly, at year 13 where your full doctor income kicks in after residency you’d be about 30-32 years old depending on when you started, so by year 27 you’d be about 44-46 years old. who stops working in the prime of middle age? if you wanna retire at 62, you still have another 15 years of income to add during which you’d completely dominate the UPS driver regardless of which column you look at. so yes up until 45 or so, a UPS driver could theoretically be doing better, but you still have quite some time left to take nice vacations, own nice cars, send your kids to nice colleges, that a UPS driver wouldn’t be able to do.
3. if you want to make an even more realistic table, consider making your debt start off at about negative 250,000 cause most people when starting med school don’t have a dime saved and would take a loan for the entirety, then add 6 years for surgery residency (the salary of which is more like 45-60k a year, not the 40k indicated), and then a median actual salary of about 250,000 a year. using those numbers you’d annihilate the amount of lifetime money earned by 98% of the country.
nice try
A few more things you need to consider Jasky and lambchop….
1) MDs have malpractice… depending on what field you go into, it can be pretty significant… it’s hard to give an exact figure since the rates vary from year to year (some fields like radiology, ob/gyn have pretty significant malpractice)
2) getting into surgery is not necessarily easy or even possible in today’s climate.
3) yes, UPS may not give you the option of working overtime, but you could get a second job and match the hours of an MD if you really need the money.
4) you are right that he stopped at year 27… most docs work way more than that, but, not all docs work til 62. If you work in academia, you’re usu. forced to retire earlier. Most surgeons are forced early because they no longer have the physical health or strength to work the hours (they might say do research or teaching instead).
5) another cost you haven’t looked at is the opportunity cost of the wages you COULD have earned in the 4 years of medical school working another job. So you are not only -250,000, you’ve lost much more than that.
6) remember you have college debts still to be paid, and 4 years of interest accruing.
7) there are multiple costs that are difficult to account for, but altogether can be pretty significant…. re-licensing exams, overhead costs for your clinic (if you are in private practice), collections firm, salary of your secretary nurses and PAs, lawyer fees (docs do get sued), EMR equipment (this is not cheap), CMEs, office equipment, anti-depressants, high blood pressure medications, advertising. If you work in academia, you may have to do research which will not generate income.
IMO med school is not nearly as horrible as most here are making it out to be. It is like anything else in that it largely depends on your attitude towards it. Honestly, if you look at the big picture and don’t stress over grades too much (they reeaaaallly don’t matter much) you can have a pretty good life while in school. Did no one else have fun in college??? It seems like that was the time to be a bum/ watch movies/ be nuts etc etc. People lamenting missing out on their youth obviously were waaay to stressed in college. Why???? My advice to premeds is to chill out and watch Animal House to learn a thing or two about proper college debauchery. Put all that pent up neuroticism into getting a good MCAT and be done with it, go to the bar if that’s your thing. Honestly, by the time you get into med school it is time to grow up a bit – you’re an adult – you have to work and work sucks some times. If you made use of the 4 year vacation that is college you should be more than ready to make this transition with no regrets. Have a descent attitude, take a deep breath, med school is stressful but it can actually be kind of (yes I’m going to say this…) FUN.